Corey
Gamma
~Pink Nazi Pirate Ninja~
Posts: 362
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Post by Corey on Nov 14, 2004 12:19:56 GMT -5
[url=http://www.robert-fisk.com/030401AlKindi6.jpg ]People like this? [/url] Or this?[/quote] Well, saying that you only showed me the guy's arm or lack thereof I can't really tell, can I? Faces mutilated beyond recognition don't really work either. I see what your point is though. But war's human nature, even though it's disgusting and all of that, tons of things in this world are.
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Post by Triyun on Nov 14, 2004 20:16:58 GMT -5
*Puff Daddy and his possy drive up and gun down Corey for the politics sucks comment.*
"VOTE OR DIE BIOTCH!!!"
Seriously war is in our history and to is some extent human nature but so are a lot of things that require control. I've had urges to beat the shit out of someone, it requires lots of meditation but you learn to control it. War should not be used as a first resort, people DIE.
You should have more sense than to dismiss it as something that just happens. Every person who dies has a family that grieves, if you believe in religon a soul is lost, if your a pure athiest you still have to admit some bit of knowledge is lost. Every person who is crippled has to endure a life of suffering. If I chopped off your arm and said it was disgusting but its what happens in life you'd be feeling a state of utter injustice for the rest of your entire life. Don't ever dismiss it as something that just happens. Everything that is disgusting in this world should be opposed to the point where it only occurs when it is absolutely necessary.
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Corey
Gamma
~Pink Nazi Pirate Ninja~
Posts: 362
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Post by Corey on Nov 14, 2004 20:55:52 GMT -5
*Puff Daddy and his possy drive up and gun down Corey for the politics sucks comment.* "VOTE OR DIE BIOTCH!!!" Seriously war is in our history and to is some extent human nature but so are a lot of things that require control. I've had urges to beat the shit out of someone, it requires lots of meditation but you learn to control it. War should not be used as a first resort, people DIE. You should have more sense than to dismiss it as something that just happens. Every person who dies has a family that grieves, if you believe in religon a soul is lost, if your a pure athiest you still have to admit some bit of knowledge is lost. Every person who is crippled has to endure a life of suffering. If I chopped off your arm and said it was disgusting but its what happens in life you'd be feeling a state of utter injustice for the rest of your entire life. Don't ever dismiss it as something that just happens. Everything that is disgusting in this world should be opposed to the point where it only occurs when it is absolutely necessary. Eh, I've got some religious-ness in me. But I don't believe a soul's lost. Immortal soul and whatnot. And I know there's tons of grief and whatnot. Don't make me out to be some heartless jerk or something. And I know restraint should be taken with war. I agree whole heartedly, but I'm not in the position to make those decisions for this country. I wasn't saying I support the war, I'm just saying it's here, deal with it in a way I guess. Actually, I really don't know what I'm talking about half the time. I just dislike when people whine about the war or lack thereof. Also, don't really think you can blame it solely on one person. But that's just me. I really despise all international everythings when I think about it. War and all the other shit. But I guess I'm preaching to the choir, eh? Too bad we can't settle stupid politics with a one on one fight or something like G Gundam. Those guys are on to something. And also, you don't know for a fact I would feel that way if you chopped my arm off. I'd probably be pretty pissed and be all why me? and whine like a moron for awhile. But eventually, I'd except it and forgive you. And that way, if you try it again, I'll probably be ready with sometype of crazy cyber-o-tronemic arm with lasers and shit.
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Post by Juan on Nov 14, 2004 21:25:28 GMT -5
Dude, Christians would so kick your ass if that ever happened. Crusades, battles, wars both physical and philisophical have been waged by Chrisitanity since it's inception. Oceans of blood spilt and oceans more to be spilled by mundane believers and fanatics alike. Everyone wants to scream that Islamic believers are so much more fanatical than Christians, but I think these people forgot things like the Crusades. They also forget that Christianity is the majority religion in America. No, not just out of religions, out of everyone. Catholicisim / Protestantsim is more prevalent than agnostics, atheists, evolutionists...the list goes on. As long as America remains a democracy and the majority of the people are Christian, it will remain governed by Christian motives.That is very true. I've said the same thing often to my father, about if such things were outlawed. You do not mess with a large religion such as that, or even a minor one for that matter, for you will awaken a beast beyond comprehension. All crusades or jihads before would just pale in comprehension before such fury. It would be, such as in say Dune, a sweeping force that would just send the country, maybe even the world, on fire figuratively speaking. There are already quite a few limitations on public sight, soon there will liekly be limitations so as Churches can no longer have steeples or crosses to identify them. That too could rise to violence. And as I've said time and time again, seperation of church and state is a non-existant, merely one judges intrepretation that everyone now citates. The ammendement says, as I've said before "There shall be no state sponsored religion" IE there is no Church of America that everyone has to be in ala England at the time America was formed. And Ellis, there is always colateral damage in war. Its sad but true. *shrug* As I've said time and time again, I believe all religions are essentially the same, just different interpretations of the same diety. It is just how there are different types of Christianity, each attracting different people, different interpretations of the same. I feel it is like this with all religions, also. I personally intepret in a form of Christianity, but I respect other's views or lack thereof. I think also that God is a pretty understandable being, thus he isn't all "Zomg, you over there didn't believe exactly right, bye bye." It is almost debasing to him/ her/ it/ them to believe that he is not understanding, seeing as the term omniscent and god seldom are seperate.
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Nov 14, 2004 21:32:46 GMT -5
Well, even though the Constitution said there can't be a state religion or the government respecting one religion over another, it's abundantly clear that the Founding Fathers and framers of the Constitution had some big beef with religion and wanted to keep the two as far away from each other as possible.
By the way, it reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”
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Corey
Gamma
~Pink Nazi Pirate Ninja~
Posts: 362
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Post by Corey on Nov 14, 2004 22:18:52 GMT -5
Well, even though the Constitution said there can't be a state religion or the government respecting one religion over another, it's abundantly clear that the Founding Fathers and framers of the Constitution had some big beef with religion and wanted to keep the two as far away from each other as possible. By the way, it reads: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...” Wasn't Tommy Jefferson an a agnostic or something similar? I believe he believed in a higher power. Just wasn't gonna give it a name or any dogmatic kinda stuff.
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Post by Meyo-san on Nov 15, 2004 12:36:29 GMT -5
"Two rights don't make a wrong, but three rights make a left."
Oh, and to believe that collateral damage is something to be controlled is nothing short of ignorance.
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Post by Wag - Now And Forever on Nov 15, 2004 13:42:13 GMT -5
Oh, and to believe that collateral damage is something to be controlled is nothing short of ignorance. "The Army is a broadsword, not a scalpel"
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Nov 15, 2004 15:26:48 GMT -5
Wasn't Tommy Jefferson an a agnostic or something similar? I believe he believed in a higher power. Just wasn't gonna give it a name or any dogmatic kinda stuff. Yeah, they were all either deist (believe in a god, but they don't think it did anything after creating the universe), athiest (don't believe in a god), or agnostic (don't care either way). But they didn't believe that any major religion was a good thing.
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Post by Triyun on Nov 15, 2004 15:38:48 GMT -5
Does anybody here who thinks collateral damage in the Arab world is something to be avoided unless 100% necessary believe that the United States can occupy Saudi Arabia and Iraq and pacify both at the same time, because the former could collapse if pushed slightly, and the latter probably won't be better for some time to come.
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Post by NeoEllis on Nov 15, 2004 15:46:25 GMT -5
Don't take this as an ad hominid attack, Wag, Zorak and Mav, but I find such a Machiavellian approach to civilian casualties sickening. As Triyun pointed out, I sincerely doubt you'd take such a ho-hum view of needless death if you were the one covered in third degree burns an missing a forearm.
To so easily shrug off crystal clear human suffering is nothing short of denial.
You have to remember that we've got an administration on our hands that sees the Geneva Convention as "quaint". Collateral "damage" alone should be a reason not to engage in a war. So long as you support an administration that believes in preemptive strikes as a first response, you're on the wrong side of the moral fence.
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Post by Meyo-san on Nov 15, 2004 16:43:02 GMT -5
"The Army is a broadsword, not a scalpel" EXACTLY! Screw the moral fence, if our security is at risk, then a preemptive strike should be made an available option.
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Post by Wag - Now And Forever on Nov 15, 2004 18:28:43 GMT -5
Don't take this as an ad hominid attack, Wag, Zorak and Mav, but I find such a Machiavellian approach to civilian casualties sickening. As Triyun pointed out, I sincerely doubt you'd take such a ho-hum view of needless death if you were the one covered in third degree burns an missing a forearm. You're talking to someone who was banned from going last year by their parents but almost went anyways. Fuck college, I wanted to kill someone. I still do, kinda, but I don't think I'd have as good of a chance now...
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Kensai
Delta
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Posts: 207
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Post by Kensai on Nov 15, 2004 22:19:59 GMT -5
You're talking to someone who was banned from going last year by their parents but almost went anyways. Fuck college, I wanted to kill someone. I still do, kinda, but I don't think I'd have as good of a chance now... *smacks his forehead* I'm gonna have to side with Ellis on this one. Come on, the Iraq conflict (was never a war.) is a needless battle. We haven't really accomplished any real security. In fact, we may have just increased the threat to us.
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Post by Triyun on Nov 15, 2004 22:44:39 GMT -5
You're talking to someone who was banned from going last year by their parents but almost went anyways. Fuck college, I wanted to kill someone. I still do, kinda, but I don't think I'd have as good of a chance now... *is reminded of the song Alice's Restaurant* Pre-emptive strike also can lead to augment the anti-american feeling around the world that comes both from our actions and the fact that the rest of the world never likes the most powerful country. It in addition to that can set a dangerous precedent for other countries and our own to follow in the future that could be a slippery slope. Not only that, its unclear whether the US is in a better position today than it was before the US entered Iraq. As I've said before, my sources at the pentagon (and yes I do have sources) have told me there was a lot of skeptiscm. We know the state department and CIA were. The main people who pushed this were the civilian leadership of the Pentagon who have the worst grip on how things work, including the poor military planners of the first Clinton administration, which in usual form, Mav will proceed to chide about Black Hawk Down. Also those who think war is something to be used with little reluctance, I'm telling you a serious clash of civilizations is on the way, and if we end up fighting full scale wars against North Korea, possibly China, and half the Muslim world at once, Europe ain't helping us, and we don't have the population to win without nuclear weapons. You need to pull back and ask yourself, is there a better way to do this than flattening city after city.
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