|
Post by Meyo-san on Nov 11, 2004 15:56:18 GMT -5
You know, I said to a friend of mine that the idiots were going to complain about the elections, guess what? I was right. This country is a democracy whether you like it or not, it is not a communist, nor totaltarian government where the government controls all. If you want to complain, that's fine, because that is your right. What you can't do is murder. The world is at war again, and even Japan is mobilizing it's military, and abandoning pacifism. www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/11/11/japan.defense.reut/index.htmlI see many of you as not being as "accepting" as you claim. You see, if you truly were someone who would be considered as "accepting" then you wouldn't have problems with religion, nor anyone practicing the religion of their choice. When you bash them, there is only one thing that you can be called, an idiot, an ignorant idiot.
|
|
|
Post by Triyun on Nov 11, 2004 16:08:09 GMT -5
However, those issues or rules were there for it's OWN time period, which means it was meant for that time period. The rules will change over time and it doesn't mean that it's modernly based for our own time period. (As I have been told, and how I see such rules in the Old Testament. They are symbolic but they can't necessarily be up to date as rules for our modern time.) But, both religions have different interpretations, and different individuals have diffferent interpretations. That, the ones you stated, are your interpretations. I'm showing the danger of fundementalism whether done through a christian or muslim perspective. These aren't my views, these are the views of many christian conservatives. I myself am a liberal agnostic, I don't believe any of it. As for complaining about the election, your damn right were going to complain if the will of the majority takes away civil liberties of some. If the democrats lost and the reason was because of privatization of social security, we should shutup and live with it. If we lost because a group of people in the middle of the country want to force their moral restrictions on other people when that group isn't hurting anyone, its a whole other story, thats demagoguery and tyranny of the majority.
|
|
|
Post by DarkAries on Nov 11, 2004 19:06:16 GMT -5
You know, I said to a friend of mine that the idiots were going to complain about the elections, guess what? I was right. This country is a democracy whether you like it or not, it is not a communist, nor totaltarian government where the government controls all. If you want to complain, that's fine, because that is your right. What you can't do is murder. The world is at war again, and even Japan is mobilizing it's military, and abandoning pacifism. www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/11/11/japan.defense.reut/index.htmlWar is state-sponsored murder, in case you'd forgotten. How you went from this is Rule by the majority to Civil liberties to How we do not have the right to commit murder to this state of "War" to Japan mobilizing for war is completely beyond Aries though... Nooooo, if you were truly accepting, you wouldn't go through fanatical measures to stamp out the religion with which you have a problem. People are going to disagree, that's the way it is, and disagreeing with a person or institution is perfectly okay. Weren't you just talking about civil liberties? What's number freakin' one with a bullet?! Disagreeing is fine, even being an opponant of an institution is fine. You can disagree and be accepting at the same time. Aries doesn't like Islam's praising of Muhammed, to use an example, but does that mean Aries is gonna go postal on the Islamic guys he works with at the restaurant? Of course not! Aries doesn't like the methods of fundamentalism used by the Baptists, in fact, he considers himself a stark opponant to that kind of fundamentalism, which he looks at as absolute lunacy! Does that mean he's going to start sniping pastors and rolling grenades into packed churches during Sunday mass? Of course not! You can ask somebody to modify their beliefs. Of course, they rarely ever listen, but still. Asking is fine. Being opposed to is fine. When you get to the level of Bosnia, you've crossed the line, but everybody knows where the damned line is. Jeez... I'm showing the danger of fundementalism whether done through a christian or muslim perspective. These aren't my views, these are the views of many christian conservatives. I myself am a liberal agnostic, I don't believe any of it. And Aries agrees with him. Of course, he's not as far out on the agnostic range as ol' Triyie can be pegged as being, Aries believes some of it, but there is a message, both in Christianity and in Islam, and believe it or not, both of those messages are a lot alike, and are really not bad ideas at all! In fact, the message of Islam even makes a lot more sense! Every Islamic guy Aries has met in the past three years has been one of the nicest guys Aries has ever met. Aries would walk through fire to help those guys out, and religion honestly doesn't even enter into the course of things with us. They're Islam, we're Christian, we know it, we've each studied the other's texts and messages, we've each decided to stick with what we've got, and neither one of us cares. Which is how it always should be. THAT, Mav, THAT is the perfect acceptance you're after. When you decend into the realm of fundamentalism, however, then you start getting a grating deal going on. They don't accept us, so how can we do the same? Remember? We're going to Hell just because we don't have their fervor. Because we won't live our lives like a crusade against evil. Because we, in their minds, are swathed in sin. Sin is in the eye of the beholder. Honestly, Aries breaks away from most religions entirely, and has decided to live his life as himself. Not as a human trying to aspire to be good, not as a human trying desperately to escape eternal damnation, Aries knows what's right and wrong, Aries knows how to do the right thing, Aries tries to do the right thing, and he doesn't need a priest or pastor or ayatollah or bonze or anybody to tell him what to do. And if, in the end, it's not good enough, well, Aries did his best on his own, send Aries where you will, St. Peter. No regrets. God pardons sin, provided you're a good soul. That's what Aries hopes. In fundamentalism, however, you don't get that leniency. You go to church every Sunday, you do this, you do that, you oppose this, you oppose that, you try and convert the fallen, else they're doomed for eternity, since you're not, and maybe, maybe, MAYBE you'll get a nice seat in Heaven afterwards. Living your life like it's a crusade is gonna give you ulcers.
|
|
|
Post by Triyun on Nov 12, 2004 11:30:29 GMT -5
I meant any of it as in any of those principles I stated of fundementalism were true in my mind Aries, I acknowledge there are some parts that have wisdom in them.
|
|
|
Post by NeoEllis on Nov 12, 2004 13:12:29 GMT -5
Really Mav, your take on religion in society appears to be completely inverted. Look around, it's the religious right that is trying to impose its will on the less zealous, not the opposite. When there's a constitutional amendment on the floor to ban the Bible, then there's something. Until that day, however, you need to use your head.
|
|
Kensai
Delta
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Posts: 207
|
Post by Kensai on Nov 12, 2004 14:40:24 GMT -5
Really Mav, your take on religion in society appears to be completely inverted. Look around, it's the religious right that is trying to impose its will on the less zealous, not the opposite. When there's a constitutional amendment on the floor to ban the Bible, then there's something. Until that day, however, you need to use your head. And likewise, I can say that by saying that i can get kicked off a govermentbuilding because me and a group of friends are saying a prayer before lunch, then that is imposing your will on me.
|
|
|
Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Nov 12, 2004 15:31:10 GMT -5
You can pray in public. It would be illegal to force people not to pray. That would be in direct violation of the First Amendment. On the other hand, if you place something like the Ten Commandments or a cross on public property, that is also in direct violation to the First Amendment. You can't favor one religion over another and you have to treat all with respect.
Anyway, look, I'm not suprised Bush won. I was rootin' for Kerry, but I knew it was impossible. And really, I don't think I can blame the uneducated, undereducated, and Christian Fundamentalists who made up the majority of Bush supporters.* I blame the Kerry Campaign. Look, the Kerry team had been weak from the start. Basically, Kerry just didn't leave a big impression on people. He was just "Bush-Lite" or "Not Bush." You don't win a campaign just being not quite the same as your opponent. And another thing, Kerry underestimated the effect of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. When Clinton was running one of his campaigns, he had people who would actively seek out the people who were trying to hurt him, and they worked. In fact, several people lost their jobs because they were illegally looking for mud on Clinton thanks to his team. Kerry needed people to do that. He should have sent in an Anti-Swift Boat Vets, the people who did support him, to testify for him. He needed something more than just a half-assed rebuttle on his website.
Maybe that's why Kerry lost. He was just incompetent. Personally, I think he was the weakest candidate the Democrats could find, and that's how they wanted it. For some stupid reason, they didn't want the loudest, most outspoken of the group. They wanted the one that they thought they could elect because he's not that different from Bush but was not Bush.
If it were up to me to pick a candidate for the Democratic ticket a year ago, I would have gone for either Dean or Sharpton. Dean was outspoken, he let people know what he wanted, and he wouldn't have let the Bush Attack Team bring him down. Sharpton is the same way, only more outspoken and less afraid about what he said. Only problem was, the media overhyped the famous "Dean Scream" (He had to scream, he was in a loud room full of cheering supporters. Just that the microphone only caught his voice), and Al Shapton is black. So, we got stuck with Cardboard Kerry. And lost.
End Rant.
*This does not apply to most of the Bush supporters here. I'm talking about the people who think there was a strong link between Al Queda and Saddam Hussein and have the line blurred between the two. For example, one kid in my class said outloud that the airplanes that hit the WTC were from Iraq. THOSE are the people I'm talking about.
|
|
|
Post by Triyun on Nov 12, 2004 19:46:48 GMT -5
Mav whats your point about Japan getting more armed forces. Of course they are, their mortal enemies in the sinic civilization are getting much stronger than they are comfortable with. There has never existed a strong Japan and a strong China at the same time, much less a strong Japan , strong China, and strong Korea. Its now got two powers its pissed off China and North Korea that are both nuclear, and Japan has no real allies in the region save the United States, who couldn't really defend it from China if it reaches its full strength. The world maybe heading back to a time before western domination, in otherwords back to its natural state, that does not necessarily mean back to war.
|
|
|
Post by Wag - Now And Forever on Nov 12, 2004 23:55:28 GMT -5
When there's a constitutional amendment on the floor to ban the Bible, then there's something. Until that day, however, you need to use your head. Dude, Christians would so kick your ass if that ever happened. Crusades, battles, wars both physical and philisophical have been waged by Chrisitanity since it's inception. Oceans of blood spilt and oceans more to be spilled by mundane believers and fanatics alike. Everyone wants to scream that Islamic believers are so much more fanatical than Christians, but I think these people forgot things like the Crusades. They also forget that Christianity is the majority religion in America. No, not just out of religions, out of everyone. Catholicisim / Protestantsim is more prevalent than agnostics, atheists, evolutionists...the list goes on. As long as America remains a democracy and the majority of the people are Christian, it will remain governed by Christian motives.
|
|
|
Post by Fireball on Nov 13, 2004 0:47:29 GMT -5
Now, as I have stated in my post in the General forum, I am a democrat living in Red State Georgia. Yeah, welcome to my world. The people at my middle school are dumbasses. That simple. They believe the propaganda SO MUCH it makes me want to vomit.
Now, as to somethings that are just weird with our current, idiotic president. He strongly opposes liscences, and applications, and safety courses before buying guns. Now, for a guy whos fighting the War on Terror, and says that terrorists are in the homeland(now watch this put!) isn't he kind of giving the terrorists weapons?
And onto the issue of homosexuality. Who gives a flying fuck? Malakym is a lesbian and she rocks! To quote my mother, when are people going to get their heads out of their asses?
And finally, if in the next year or so you start hearing about a "Holy Crusade" know this. I'm leading the Jewish people to kick Bush's ass. Oh, and here's something for you to think on. The Pope, a nice, old man, who follows the "love thy neighbors" thing in the Bible, hates Bush. Think about that.
-Fireball
P.S. Oh, go to google and look up Betty Bowers, Worlds Best Christian. Best f---ing site there is!
P.P.S. The Pope, unlike nearly every Christian I know in the South, follows the views of Jesus. To quote America the Book, Jesus preached love and peace, and yet more people have died in his name then in anyone else's in history. EVEN HITLER!
|
|
|
Post by Tobari Sabbatine on Nov 13, 2004 1:54:45 GMT -5
Really Mav, your take on religion in society appears to be completely inverted. Look around, it's the religious right that is trying to impose its will on the less zealous, not the opposite. When there's a constitutional amendment on the floor to ban the Bible, then there's something. Until that day, however, you need to use your head. nay the Libbies would have destroed the morals of the US, turned it into a confedercy and Canada would attack us. (most want almost zero Federal control and all State and total libbraty thus you might see a 'right to have sex with a dog')
|
|
|
Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Nov 13, 2004 7:54:30 GMT -5
Wait, that's sarcasm, right? Christian Right sends List to the President to push their agenda.Okay, while the majority of the nation are Christians, we have a duty to respect the minority. That's why we are a Constitutional Republic. While they may not like it, we have to respect the rights of other people who have different views than them.
|
|
|
Post by Triyun on Nov 13, 2004 10:35:08 GMT -5
nay the Libbies would have destroed the morals of the US, turned it into a confedercy and Canada would attack us. (most want almost zero Federal control and all State and total libbraty thus you might see a 'right to have sex with a dog') Ok liberals tend to favour a stronger central government, conservatives favour states rights. Thats Introduction to American Politics 101, the chapter being the history of Federalism in the United States. Remember Alan Keyes this past election cycle favouring state legislatures picking US Senators or Clarence Thomas's speech at William and Mary a few years back. The arguement that beastiality would be allowed is ridiculous, there is no way to enforce it anyways really, people can have sex with their dog with their blinds down and in the privacy of their own home, and the dog isn't going to go squeel. I think thats the least of our worries anyways, legislating morality when it doesn't harm someone else is just against democratic principle. Considering the idea of democracy was founded by a bunch of gay men proves that their not a threat to it anyways. As for the Crusades, that wasn't motivated by religon as much as power desires. The third crusade was lost because Prince John and King Phillip of France both catholics backstabbed Richard who almost beat Saladin. Then the Holy Roman Emperor Henry imprisoned Richard. I agree Christians can be vicious when fighting off Muslims, Balkan Wars come to mind. That doesn't make it moral to be vicious.
|
|
Corey
Gamma
~Pink Nazi Pirate Ninja~
Posts: 362
|
Post by Corey on Nov 13, 2004 23:10:46 GMT -5
Bleh, politics suck.
Each side has reasons, and beliefs, and views, and opinions, and sources, and bs to back their guy or lack of guy. The world will continue and not much will get done as always.
I didn't care for either guy honestly. But just going by impressions, Bush seemed more human to me than Kerry. But then again, I agree with blowing up people I don't like.
Call me stupid if ya like. Kerry's a liar as much as Bush is or isn't in my mind.
|
|
|
Post by NeoEllis on Nov 14, 2004 11:15:20 GMT -5
But then again, I agree with blowing up people I don't like. [url=http://www.robert-fisk.com/030401AlKindi6.jpg ]People like this?[/url] Or this?
|
|