((Spoilers)) The old "Make Ep. III work with EU"

[Juan]

Time to do wha t we do everryyyy time.

Alright, first off is the omnipresent "Death Star" issue. Now, they never said EVER that Wedge's girlfriend (for a period) personally worked on the Death Star, she was part of the staff. We do know tone of the humans there and I believe a Twi'lek were chief of it's development, and they never said what age they were. Game set and match in that, whoosh.

Now, its theoretical I think that the Death Star was in fact being developed in Maw during the entire Republic battle, secretly under Tarkin under the Emperor. It works, honestly. The prototype was what we saw (what we saw was IDENTICAL to the Death Star prototype in design, EXACTLY.) And the schematics COULD have been seen in Attack of the Clones. It all depends on when the Maw Installation was developed.

Now, first up one the real discussion platter is "Vader's greed". He obviously went to the Dark Side in the first place of greed, but in the Trilogy we see very well that he was a willing servant of the Emperor, and though he had aspirations to rule with his son he still cowed to the Emperor until the final end. Any comments on this?

[Triyun]

The original plan for the Death Star was developed by Seinar and given to then Commander Tarkin and Chancellor Palpatine a year or so after Episode I at the end of the Zenoma Sekot incident. It was just a massive turbolaser bristling fortress though, it lacked the super laser component. It is possible that the super laser tech and its prototype were not yet ready but the super structure was and just had a hallow shell where it would go. Something the size of a small moon would take 2 decades to build.

Now from some of the literature they put out prior to III they talk about the Star Destroyers we see in this being in between the Victory and Imperial Classes. Personally why not just keep the Victory as it is supposed to be the back bone of the fleet until the Imperial ships show up. I suppose Coruscants defense fleet might have the latest and greatest and the Victory and remaining Acclamators are off on the outer rim sieges but seriously I'd like to see one. It also would have been nice to see Y-Wings and Z-95s why we were at it. The only older ship cameos we got to see in this one were a YT-1300.

[Raz V5.0]

Obviously, Vader believed that Luke had died with Padme, because his preminitions never showed him that his children survived.

He had lost everything, his body, his wife, his unborn child(s), he had nothing to life for except to life for the Emperor.

Now, he wanted to use the life saving power because he most likely assumed the child would die with Padme. However, the children survived. Therefore, when Vader found out his son actually survived, you can understand why he would want to rule the Galaxy with his son. The entire reason he turned to the dark side was because of Luke, he would easily turn on the Emperor for his child. Which, is even accented more by the thought that there was still some good in him. When I say that, I mean good as in, I dunno, some twisted way of a Father making up for all those lost years.

[Juan]

Accepted, Gojira. Triyun, we KNOW the super laser itself was developed by Maw, since we saw the prototype (or perhaps just skeleton) Vader and the Emeperor saw in a trilogy of EU books. PErhaps it was the Jedi Academy Trilogy. None the less, it fits plot wise. Tarkin and the developers were old enough.

Any additional issues? I did find the lack of classic "Older" vehicles... disturbing, but it could fit as in them "not being there" simply.

[The Giant-Size Man Thing]

Anakin is the very definition of a Tragic Greek Hero. He was a basically good man, who through some character flaw, unwittingly tempts the fates and brings unusual amounts of suffering upon himself and others.

His intentions were to use the power of the Dark Side of the Force to save Padme from the nightmares he had. The whole reason of him choosing Palpatine over Windu was the fact that through Palpatine and the Dark Side of the force, he thought he could save Padme.

Unfortunately, his flaw was that he wanted this power too badly and it became a lust for power (greed as Zorak put it), probably because of the corruption that the Dark Side brings. He made a pact with the devil (Palpatine) and went to hell (Mustafar) all for the person he loved. He tried to convince Padme that his newfound power would save her, and he and she could defeat the evil Palpatine and rule the galaxy together; Padme, however, saw what the corruption of the Dark Side did to him and did not want any part of it and didn't want Anakin to have any part of it either. Anakin couldn't believe what he was hearing. The person he did all of this for is now rejecting him? This isn't right. It must be Obi Wan's fault. He's the person who turned her against him! And of course Obi Wan was stupid enough to step out of the ship where Anakin could see him. He couldn't stand it and force choked the person he loved and dueled his former master, mentor, friend, and brother.

At the end of it all, Obi Wan defeats him and he's left to burn on Mustafar. Luckily Palpatine knew he was in trouble and rescued him. Anakin was brought back to Coruscant and was rebuilt. The first Darth Vader asks is how is his wife. Palpatine informs him that during his fit of rage, he killed her, and Vader flips out, destroying the droids and machines that rebuilt him. Everything he went through was for nothing. His wife and presumably his child are dead, the Order is gone, and all he had left was Palpatine and the Empire. That's why I think Vader became so obedient to the Emperor because he had nothing else left.

Skip ahead twenty years to the Battle of Yavin. Strange occurences start happening. Obi Wan comes out of exile and faces Vader on the Empire's new Death Star and the destroyer of the Emperor's greatest weapon is extremely strong in the Force. After capturing a Rebel after the Battle of Yavin, he demands to know the name of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star. The rebel replies "Skywalker." Could it be his son? This sparks a part of Vader that has been dormant for twenty years. Luke is his last link to the person he loved, and a way to break from the chains the Emperor held him by. Three years later he reveals himself to Luke and tries to convince Luke to join him and rule the galaxy as father and son, the same way he tried to convince Padme to join him. Luke also resisted, but Vader did not try to kill him as he tried to kill Padme. He knew that Luke was his only chance of achieving his hopes and dreams. Luke saw the good that was still inside of him.

When Prince Xizor learned that Vader had a son, he was going to make sure to kill him so that he could gain favor of the Emperor over Vader and also for revenge against Vader for killing his family. Bad fucking mistake on Xizor's part, and Vader made sure he knew it. Vader protected Luke, and made sure that his forces ignored the Millenium Falcon.

The Battle of Endor. The final showdown between the Rebels and the Empire. Vader had convinced the Emperor to allow him to train Luke as his apprentice. The Emperor had different plans, however. Instead of having Vader being Luke's master (and the potential of Vader and Luke overthrowing him), he wanted Luke to replace Vader. During the Throne Room Duel, Luke released his anger and hate, fought Vader down, slicing off his hand. He saw the wires and mechanisms in Vaders hand and looked at his own. Palpatine claps and compliments Luke on his skill. Then he orders Luke to kill his father. This scene is paralelled in the Dooku Fight at the very begining of Revenge of the Sith. Unlike his father, he disobeys Palpatine's order and throws down his weapon. Palpatine would not stand for this and begins to fry Luke with Force Lightning. Vader gets up and watches what Palpatine is doing to his son. Luke cries out for his father to help him. Vader realizes that he can't let his son die because Luke is all he truly has left of Padme, and believes that forfeiting his own life to save Luke's is the right thing to do. Where he chose Palpatine over Mace Windu so he could save Padme, he chooses Luke over Palpatine to save the person he loves. Vader is redeemed and once again becomes Anakin Skywalker.

I think the most interesting thing of the whole saga was the fact that no one believed Vader could be brought back to the Light except for Luke. Obi Wan said, "I once thought as you did," implying that he thought he or someone could bring Vader back, but no longer thinks so. Vader himself didn't believe he could be brought back, responding to Luke as, "It is... too late for me, son." This did not break Luke's confidence in his father. He just tried harder. I believe the reason Vader chose Luke over Palpatine was because of his love for his wife, the love for his son, and the dreams he once had for them both.

The parralells of the two trilogies are what make the whole saga so great. Both Yoda and Obi Wan thought Luke was going to fall to the Dark Side during his first confrontation with Vader. While Luke didn't defeat Vader, he did resist the temptation of the Dark Side. That's why Yoda told Luke that he required no more training. He had succeeded where his father failed.

Now, with the Death Star, I think there's an actual EU explaination trying to combine the original EU version of events and the events in the prequels. You'd need to look it up, though. Personally, though, I think most of the EU written before the Prequels that dealt with that time period should be thrown out and replaced by the new material. Infact, Timothy Zahn is writing a book about the Outbound Flight so that it ties in with the Prequels. Personally, I find it easier to believe that it was the Geonosians who designed the Death Star, they intrusted the schematics with Dooku who in turn gave it to Palpatine. According to Lucas, it was the Geonosians who built the Death Stars, so it's not a stretch to believe they designed it either, since they are supposedly master engineers.

By the way, Triyun, the second Death Star was about five and a half times the diameter of the original (160 km on the DS1 and 900 km on the DS2), but was sixty percent complete within six monthes in complete secrecy (see Shadows of the Empire) and was still going too slowly for the Emperor (dialogue between the Moff and Vader in RotJ). In the Star Wars galaxy, a space station the size of the moon is not a problem to build.

I think how we can justify it, though, is the Geonosians worked out the Superlaser part of the design, and they began construction on the prototype. Several prototypes were built and eventually the real Death Star was built. I think we can chalk up the Death Star construction time to the fact that the Senate was still around and the Emperor couldn't fully do what he wanted right away. Once he abolished the senate, he could do whatever the hell he wanted.

[Juan]

Except if we just have it so the Genoshians just created the actual thing, had it the body was created like Triyun did, and that Maw developed the Super Laser concurrently while this all happens, it sort of fits. The entire Trade Federation was essentially about "multiple factions working together contributing resources pooling designs to make something." The Death Star would be even more so this, when you think about it.

[The Giant-Size Man Thing]

The Star Wars Technical Commentaries has a good page on the Construction of the Death Stars.

Great Weapon

During the Clone Wars, the Confederacy of Independent Systems secretly began development and construction of a moon-sized battle station with superlaser prime weapon. Geonosians already had plans before their world was overrun [AOTC]. Three years later, Archduke Poggle the Lesser had dubbed this device the Great Weapon. After the Battle of Coruscant the war had apparently reached a stalemate, but the Separatist leaders knew that they could win eventually if they could prolong the conflict until the Great Weapon's completion. According to Shu Mai (in a pessimistic mood on Utapau), this might have taken "years" [Reversal of Fortune #112].

At some unknown time after the deaths of the Separatist Council and Lord Vader's recuperation as a cyborg, an incomplete battle station fell into the hands of the Galactic Empire. Emperor Palpatine, Lord Vader and Moff Tarkin inspected this prize [Revenge of the Sith]. This may have been the unfinished remains of the Great Weapon. The framework is almost exactly spherical (whereas Tarkin's later, operational Death Star was slightly oblate) and the superlaser dish is proportionally smaller. Therefore they are not he same object. The earlier device must have remained secret. In their ignorance, Princess Leia and the Rebel Alliance wrongly believed that the Death Star was a novelty.

Tarkin's experts could reverse-engineer and improve the secret, captured Separatist technology at their leisure. This opportunity may have been a vital inspiration and practical boost to the later Death Star research programme. (Similarly, German rockets and engineers captured at the end of World War 2 greatly advanced the USSR's and USA's efforts to develop space travel.)

The construction of moon-sized starships remains a novelty at the end of the Clone Wars. How, specifically, did the Empire exploit what it learned from its studies of the Great Weapon? Where was it hidden; when and how was it eventually discarded? Was there any continuity between the Separatist project and Tarkin's later programme in the Maw? Did the research effort pause or halt when mundicidal weapons were no longer needed, during the years of peace between the Clone Wars and the eruption of rebellion? How many more intermediate prototypes were built and tested? What were their flaws and inefficiencies? Did any of the prototypes fail catastrophically or explode? These stories remain untold.

[Juan]

During the Clone Wars, the Confederacy of Independent Systems secretly began development and construction (1) of a moon-sized battle station with superlaser prime weapon. Geonosians already had plans (2) before their world was overrun [AOTC]. Three years later, Archduke Poggle the Lesser had dubbed this device the Great Weapon. After the Battle of Coruscant the war had apparently reached a stalemate, but the Separatist leaders knew that they could win eventually if they could prolong the conflict until the Great Weapon's completion. According to Shu Mai (in a pessimistic mood on Utapau), this might have taken "years" [Reversal of Fortune #112].

At some unknown time after the deaths of the Separatist Council and Lord Vader's recuperation as a cyborg, an incomplete battle station fell into the hands of the Galactic Empire (3) . Emperor Palpatine, Lord Vader and Moff Tarkin inspected this prize [Revenge of the Sith]. This may have been the unfinished remains of the Great Weapon (4). The framework is almost exactly spherical (whereas Tarkin's later, operational Death Star was slightly oblate) and the superlaser dish is proportionally smaller (5). Therefore they are not he same object. The earlier device must have remained secret. In their ignorance, Princess Leia and the Rebel Alliance wrongly believed that the Death Star was a novelty.

Tarkin's experts could reverse-engineer and improve the secret (6), captured Separatist technology (7) at their leisure. This opportunity may have been a vital inspiration and practical boost to the later Death Star research programme. (Similarly, German rockets and engineers captured at the end of World War 2 greatly advanced the USSR's and USA's efforts to develop space travel.)

The construction of moon-sized starships remains a novelty at the end of the Clone Wars. How, specifically, did the Empire exploit what it learned from its studies of the Great Weapon (8)? Where was it hidden; when and how was it eventually discarded? Was there any continuity between the Separatist project and Tarkin's later programme in the Maw? Did the research effort pause or halt when mundicidal weapons were no longer needed, during the years of peace between the Clone Wars and the eruption of rebellion? How many more intermediate prototypes were built and tested? What were their flaws and inefficiencies? Did any of the prototypes fail catastrophically or explode? These stories remain untold.

(1) Development and construction can mean the same thing. It never said "Ohoho, we made this." It could just mean they made the prototype, the "Great Weapon" so to speak.

(2) Plans which could have been supplied by "Darth Sidious" aka the Emperor. Don't forget he led BOTH SIDES OF THE WAR.

(3) Fall into the hands? The Emperor led both sides of the war, falling wasn't an issue. It was always in his hands, or rather Tarkin's and whoever was constructing it.

(4) This Death Star prototype is EXACTLY IDENTICAL to the Death Star Prototype developed by Maw. Its theoretically possible that it was constructed by a Genoshian/ Maw work force, for the explicit purpose of testing the Super Laser.

(5) Again, see 4. IDENTICAL.

(6) Again, the Emperor led both the Seperatists and the Republic. Maw could have supplied their piece of the schematic. DOn't forget that Maw served Tarkin specifically and Tarkin served the Emperor specifically. There was no faction stated.

(7) Agaiiiiin, it was always in the Emperor's controll...

(8) " " " "

[The Giant-Size Man Thing]

Well, Zorak, you have to understand that everyone who knew that Palpatine was playing both sides were Palpatine, Vader, the Jedi, and Dooku. Dooku and the Jedi who knew (except for Yoda and Obi Wan) were all killed, and Palps and Vader aren't going to say anything. So, I wouldn't be suprised if they had to reverse-engineer some of the Seperatist's designs. Even though they were both manipulated by the same person, they still thought of each other as the enemy, and probably wouldn't give up their secrets easily. That and giving the other side the weapon to reverse-engineer instead of the schematics outright makes the fact that he's playing both sides less obvious.

[Triyun]

The book Rogue Planet is the earliest chronological book to have a battlesphere mentioned, it however, was not super laser equipped. I maintain that since Tarkin though still a Republic officer commanded a Trade Federation equipped taskforce. He then gave the plans to Palpatine who gave them to his newest apprentice Dooku. The super laser though was probably only in its infant stages for a while. Also I think its highly likely that Tarkin knew that Palpatine was playing both sides.

[The Giant-Size Man Thing]

Triyun said:

Now from some of the literature they put out prior to III they talk about the Star Destroyers we see in this being in between the Victory and Imperial Classes. Personally why not just keep the Victory as it is supposed to be the back bone of the fleet until the Imperial ships show up. I suppose Coruscants defense fleet might have the latest and greatest and the Victory and remaining Acclamators are off on the outer rim sieges but seriously I'd like to see one. It also would have been nice to see Y-Wings and Z-95s why we were at it. The only older ship cameos we got to see in this one were a YT-1300.

Well, maybe it's time for some of that EU revising I suggested. Personally, I was never a big fan of the Victories and always thought it was weird that they were built by Rendili instead of Kuat. The Venators in ROTS are pretty cool in my book, though. I especially liked how they repainted them all at the end of the movie.

But yeah, the Acclamators and other ships were probably in other campaigns while the best and newest ships were being used at Coruscant. It was the capital after all. Z-95's I'm glad weren't used. They're dinky little ships at the time of Episode I, and they're still dinky little ships past Endor. Y-wings would've been cool, though, especially if they were plated, but I think the V-wings and ARC-170's were badass in their own rights.

By the way, at the Battle of Kashyyyk they use Juggernauts. Nice to see those included. They should've had AT-PT's as well, but are forgiven because of the AT-RT's, which seem to be faster and have a wider firing arc, even though it's an open-air walker.

I have one question, though. If there were camoflaged Clone Troopers and Proto-Scout Troopers on Kashyyyk, why the didn't they use camoflage on Endor? I think that's a fair question to ask.

[Triyun]

Gojira have you noticed this thread says how to make Episode III work with EU. Not how to make EU work with Episode III?

I just saw the movie again and the death star barrel definately was not build yet with the rest of the super structure unlike the prototype. This can go along with the super structure built before SL is finished theory. Also Gojira a V-Wing is a speeder introduced in large numbers after the Thrawn campaign.

[The Giant-Size Man Thing]

No, the V-wings are the ships we see at the end of Episode III that look like the Proto-TIE's. At least now they are.

Check them out. V-wing Clone Star Fighter.

Besides, Triyun, you can't really make Episode III fit with the EU, since in the EU, the Clone Wars takes place several years before it does in the movies. That's why revising the EU is what most authors are doing. I blame the early authors for any confusion, though. Lucas told them not to get into the Clone Wars era.

[Juan]

V-Wings are set way after NR... GJ on Lucas' part. Though they technically are "V-Wing Airspeeders" not "V-Wing Starfighters." Way to make everything confusing for EU fans, Lucas.

[Draco Starcloud]

The original EU V-Wing is an airspeeder used by the New Republic. Its unique features are a speed-boosting scramjet, a rapid-fire option for its lasers, and (in Rogue Squadron for N64 at least) Multi-Missiles. It appears in the Dark Empire comics during the Battle of Mon Calamari and in "Star by Star" during the Battle of Coruscant. It also appears in Rogue Squadron for N64 specifically for the Battle of Mon Calamari level.

The Episode 3 V-Wing is what Goji linked to earlier.