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Post by NeoEllis on Sept 3, 2005 17:33:17 GMT -5
Well, I think we've all been here before, at one point or another. The "great controversy" between Natural Selection and Creationism, or "Intelligent Design" simply refuses to go away, in spite of all rational attempts to vanquish it. Now, as far as the debate goes, you know the set up: The players - Evolutions and Creationists both appear on the scene, state their respective beliefs, make their arguments and eventually the cast-iron bludgeon of reason has smashed the egg like dogma of Creationism into a pulp. But as I've noticed this argument appearing with some frequency in the past few days, I've decided to resurrect the debate in this forum. I'd say the following articles each make strong points on the utter absurdity of Creationism: www.buffalobeast.com/82/EvolutionRock.htmublearns.buffalo.edu/courses/1/200509_326649_CH/content/_353119_1/article_darwin.pdf
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Sept 3, 2005 18:20:52 GMT -5
Well, Stardestroyer.net has a whole part of its site devoted to bashing Creationism. And it's under the guise of www.creationtheory.org.
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Post by Cyrus on Sept 3, 2005 18:30:37 GMT -5
Wow, I didn't even realize the creation theory was even alive and kicking. They do make some really stupid arguments. I don't like what he says about throwing out Genesis, you can use it for the themes and things like that. I am not Christian but I have been brought up by intelligent Christians and they realize that most thing in the bible are not supposed to be taken seriously. I am still way to surprised that people take creationism serious because everything about it can be disproved by the bible itself as long as you use some common sense.
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Post by Craze on Sept 3, 2005 20:14:26 GMT -5
Okay, from my viewpoint, Genesis doesn't give much facts about how we came about. So, I don't really beleive in Creationism all that much. But, like Cyrus, I was raised by a few intelligent Christians and learned that Genesis, while may not give actual facts of nature, does show morals and a few beliefs to the religion of Christianity.
On the subject of Natural Selection, it's a theory, it's quite possible.
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Post by Cyrus on Sept 3, 2005 20:44:15 GMT -5
You can't say that evolution is the way humans came to be because it has yet to be proven that we evolved at all. as it says in its name, the theory of evolution, evolution is still a theory. There could be other ways humans came to be on this planet but it is more reliable then Intellegent Design.
Thats just my view on this.
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Sept 3, 2005 21:07:39 GMT -5
Yeah, and Gravity is a theory, Heliocentry is a theory, nuclear fission is just a theory, hell, electricity but we can still quantify and show evidence of their existence. Theory in everyday conversation and theory in scientific terms are two completely different things. Theories are tested thoroughly, and are the best explanations of events in the natural world.
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Post by Pkmatrix on Sept 3, 2005 21:55:49 GMT -5
Basically what he said. In regular speech, theory basically means "an unproven idea", but in science it means almost the exact opposite. A theory is something that is effectively a fact, like gravity.
Anyways, I never understood the Creationism vs. Evolution thing. Maybe it's because I'm Catholic...my church pretty much says that Genesis is just a symbolic story anyway. *shrugs*
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Post by Cyrus on Sept 3, 2005 23:27:38 GMT -5
I believe it is the law of gavity.The term law is often used to refer to universal principles that describe the fundamental nature of something, to universal properties and relationships between things, or to descriptions that purport to explain these principles and relationships. a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory." This is straight from google dictionary.
edit: it is The Universal Law of Gravitation
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Post by Xtermo on Sept 3, 2005 23:35:00 GMT -5
You guys suck at defining terms. Are we talking Naturalism vs. Religion or Evolutionism vs. Creationism for this thread?
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Post by Cyrus on Sept 3, 2005 23:39:35 GMT -5
hey I am just backing up my claim. I mean I think we evolved but that has not been completely proven. Thats all I'm saying.
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Post by Xtermo on Sept 4, 2005 0:21:26 GMT -5
Seriously, though- what is the scope we're talking about for this thread?
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Post by Draco Starcloud on Sept 4, 2005 4:17:46 GMT -5
As a transparency my Anthropology teacher showed us put it:
Scientists say: "We have a set of facts. What conclusions can we draw from them?"
Creationists say: "We have a conclusion. What facts can we find to support it?"
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Sept 4, 2005 9:07:00 GMT -5
I believe it is the law of gavity.The term law is often used to refer to universal principles that describe the fundamental nature of something, to universal properties and relationships between things, or to descriptions that purport to explain these principles and relationships. a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory." This is straight from google dictionary. edit: it is The Universal Law of Gravitation A Law and a Theory are two different things. Laws state the facts, but do not explain them. Theory of gravity is how we explain it. Just like there is the fact of the evolution and the theory of evolution. The fossil record shows more contemporary forms rising from primitive forms. That is the fact of evolution. How it occurs (mutation, natural selection, etc) are all mechanisms and part of the how, the theory of Evolution. And that's what we were saying. You don't get closer to fact than a theory. It's the best possible explaination for a phenomena, and closest to proof we have (we cannot "prove" anything, but we can get pretty damn close). The Theory of Evolution is still evolving itself as more information on everything from fossils to genetics are still being researched, but the fact of different species arising from a population is scientific fact. For example, scientists use the simplest of creatures to test the theory of evolution (fruit flies, bacteria, so forth), because their generations and populations quickly restart. We've managed to create new species with these test animals by changing enviromental elements. If you want a reallife scenario, look at anti-biotic resistant bacteria. The ones that survived lived on to reproduce, carrying on their genetic material to the next generation. Or look at the HIV virus, which mutates so rapidly there is no way to prevent it and it becomes harder to treat. You can't dismiss theories because they're theories. They explain phenomena in the natural world in the best way we possibly can through careful observation, testing, research, etc. We built the atom bomb on the principles of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, didn't we? If Relativity is "just a theory," how else could've the atom bomb have exploded? How about electrons? No one's ever seen an electron, but we've monitored their presence, and we can use them to light our homes. Hell, what about light? Light is just a theoretical particle/wave that we can observe its effects, but have never actually seen. The Theory of Evolution and the Fact of Evolution is just like that. It's silly not to think so. We've got a fossil record, we've got lab results, it's fact. Now, how those processes actually work are still being researched and tested. Theories are also subject to change, but that doesn't make them wrong or bad. It makes them the opposite. The fact that we CAN change a theory based on new evidence shows the strength of the scientific method. New additions or changes to a theory makes the theory closer to being "perfect." Sorry, but whenever someone goes on "it's just a theory," I lose it. Everything is just a theory. Gravity is still a theory, like it or not. The Law of Gravity explains what is does, but the Theory explains how it does. Doesn't change the fact that gravity is still there, and that's why it was eventually accepted as law.
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Sept 4, 2005 9:12:22 GMT -5
I believe it's supposed to be Creationism vs. Evolution, however I got off on a theory tangent and a few others decided to go to "I believe Genesis has a good message, but isn't real," road.
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Post by Cyrus on Sept 4, 2005 12:02:10 GMT -5
Ok, we'll finish the spitting contest at school.
Now for something completely different.
I just want to say if your going to say dinosaurs exist, today, because of the pictures of dragons then that would mean that sphinxes and all those other mythological creatures exist, today, too. Just one thing I found funny.
I don't really think that there are any creationists on this site... lets go get them.
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