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Post by Tobari Sabbatine on Nov 27, 2004 3:24:56 GMT -5
Glad I can help there.
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Black Ace
Delta
"So how are you going to live that life as if nothing happened?"- Ryoji Kaji, NGE
Posts: 220
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Post by Black Ace on Nov 27, 2004 17:54:47 GMT -5
Also it's said that faith makes people life longer since many have stornger wills to live. Many of the things in the bible have happen. Like the destortion of the cities of Sloden and Galmora is true we found the cities. That doesn't mean that God destroyed the cities. That just means that the cities were destroyed and the catastrophe was attributed to God.
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Post by Tobari Sabbatine on Nov 27, 2004 23:54:40 GMT -5
That's what makes God, God he does things that makes people question he's own exsistents.
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Post by Xtermo on Nov 29, 2004 18:06:04 GMT -5
Name a single thing, Sab, that can arise from religion that cannot arise from secular humanism. I've got one! Hope for humanity. This thread begins with the topic of human nature, and how such a nature as we have is ultimately self-destructive. No natural force can overcome its own nature, Ellis. There is no gravitational force so weak that it repells. There is no flesh that escapes death. The only hope that things can change lies in religion's ability to make all things possible to those who believe it. Any mindset created by rules creates a closed mind.
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Post by DarkAries on Nov 29, 2004 18:37:48 GMT -5
And as a rule, living things have a damn-near insurmountable, implacable, desperate, screaming, crying in the night, ravenous desire to live.
Like weeds. Ever tried to sit down and kill a weed? Damn near impossible. Those things are immortals.
Humans are living things. And despite what you think our nature is, Ellis, living things are going to live, even if it kills 'em.
...
Hold on, Aries thinks he made a funny up there...
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Post by Juan on Nov 29, 2004 20:40:05 GMT -5
Humanity doesn't turn towards religion because of a fear of death, for in many religions there is no "after death" fate, just death. Humanity turns to religion in belief of something "greater" then them, the belief that there is something, not neccesarily a god or gods, but something bigger then them.
Its not an attempt to escape from death, its the seeking of a path towards enlightenment. Religion is merely a form of Philosophy.
Many people question religion because of the arguements about heaven and hell, the belief of why people go there, and on the concepts of free will and divine fate. Is humanity stuck on a path, seeing as how many argue God knows all that is to happen, and that there is no free will. This is just one side of a long standing religion arguement: Freewill or Destiny?
Whats the point of freewill if it isn't "free?" I feel that god leaves all open to man, for him to make his own life and see his character develop. I belive that God doesn't judge ones actions in their lifetime but rather their character behind the actions. Whats the point of judging character if everything is preset?
I do believe god has perhaps some sort of controll over life, sure, but he doesn't CONTROL your entire life. If he did, what is the point of living at all? No variation. Its like playing Tetris except you watch the combinations fall into place without your movement. You want to go there? No. There is off limits. Here. Go here. "But that isn't right". Go there anyways. Plus if god controlled fate, then god inherently makes people evil.
Many people have a problem with the concept of heaven and hell, that ones sins make them go to heaven or hell. I feel rather that is ones' character more then ones' actions guides their fate if one looks in a Heaven-hell view of afterlife. Some argue then that "ones character guides ones actions"
The "Characters makes actions thing" doesn't always hold true. According to some, to kill anything is instantly basically "Whammo, hell". If you believe the "sins" or "choice of religion" makes you go to heaven or hell. BUt character doesn't always mean that. You could be say, Islam or Buddhist or hell, atheist. That would damn you, according to some. But if you have a good character, I think, it doesn't matter. If you are overall a good person, I see it as "Yeah. Heaven."
Just say Johnny 2 by 4 over there say commits suicide due to say, depression due to a chemical imbalance. According to some, that is killing without repent. Hell for the boy. However, the way I see it, say Johnny was really a good boy just couldn't take it. I think its CHARACTER more then ACTIONS.
It is also a belief by some that those born before Christ's souls weren't saved, therefor they are stuck in limbo for eternity, or damned. That is foolish, blindness at the fact that, if there infact is a god, all knowing, he would be the most understanding being out there.
I find it funny that people always question "Why death? Why pain in life? Why not have us all experience eternal bliss from the get go?" Ace, you once argued that you didn't believe in god because of the fate of a female friend of yours, who died young in age. You took this as a reason to not believe it god, or that god is in fact evil enough that you do not wish to believe in him if he does in fact exist.
Its rather simple, and yet its not. Think about it. Eternal Bliss. For eternity. Basking forever in the "Light of god". Just basking. The way I see it is, it would seem boring after a while, actually. Imagine a world without problems, conflict, or anything. Nothing would ever happen. Hence I think Earth has problems, frankly, so you can experience it. Deal with obstacles. Handle (or, perhaps) succumb to impediments. A test of character (something hard to test in eternal bliss), along with simply an experience. People who grow old in life, and find themselves bed ridden, often say they are ready for death, having experienced a good life and frankly growing tired and well done in the path of life. It is the thrill of the adventure, an adventure that tests what the adventurers are made of. It is sad that one may pass on early in life, but if no one passed on, fate would be definite and the experience would be meaningless.
I wonder if god, like say Leto Artredies, the God Emperor of Dune in the Dune series, sees just the pathes of life, with the branches and possibilities and possible pathes, with branches that people could take.
Now to the "good and evil arguement".
For there to be good, there has to be evil, or rather, the knowledge of good and evil. Innocence is not goodness, it is a blank slate.
Many people argue against god and religion because people commit atrocities in his name. People claim "If there is a god, why did he let such atrocities take place? Why didn't he intervene? Why did God, say, not stop the evils of the Holocaust? Why did he 'create' Hitler?
Why did God have have the Holocaut happen? First of all, if God were to intervene with all life, what would be the point? Its like having someone live your life for you and do everything for you, its totally different. But it was so evil! Thats the point. Many countries were often slow to help Germany, it is matter of ethics, Sarah. If god were to intervene, it would be undermine the good in the world essentially.
Our country was slow to combat the threat of the "Axis of Evil", not really going overly into combat until we ourselves were attacked. That is evidence in itself. Germany had a much greater warmachine then us, but in the end it came down to "Is it worth American lives and potential defeat to intervene aganist this Evil?" America was slow to answer this question, finally forced into it as we we too were attacked. When we were attacked it finally dawned on some that "If we don't fight back, we will be destroyed". Some wished to negotiate or surrender to the Axis. But in the end, we didn't surrender even when the odds were against us. We and our Allies conquered a seemingly invincible menace. Its the strife over evil! Hitler's actions were horrible, but think of it this way. Lets look at the Garden of Eden as a figure of speech. The Garden of Eden is the bliss of ignorance. The Fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil is a clear meaning in representing the gaining of an awareness of "Good and Evil" and the loss of a deep innocence. But its notable that there was no "Tree of Good" or "Tree of Evil". But that both were intertwined as one tree. For one to know good, they must know evil. For there to light, there must be darkness. Its an ancient concept.
One could think, once again figuratively, that The Garden of Eden was the bliss of heaven perhaps, or like heaven, and that god in fact despite bidding them not to, wanted them to feast of the tree. Innocence has problems in that, figuratively again, if God were to tell Adam or Eve not to eat of the tree, they would have no qualm going against God's word for the fact is, they were unable to feel qualms or regrets, or even worry. The embarking into the concepts of Good and Evil, a balance, serves as a sort of awakening of a maturing of mankind, perhaps what god wanted all along.
This is of course an arguement about different religious beliefs, which is diverging somewhat off the topic, pardon my rant, which I partially stole from other rants I've made on other sites. More back on topic, humanity is, as said, capable of good and evil. Its a matter of development and choice. I have faith that, in the end, good will prevail. There is idiocy in humanity, sure, and we will do the best to qualm it. Many are indeed Cruel, in the need to feel their own superiority. They are trash, the best way to view it. Spit on them. However, cultures and nations and races is more of a sense of "individualness", background, and beliefs than hate and a sense of superiority. I have myself argued before that, in America we shouldn't try to even destinct "black" and "white", but the fact is that the African American community has its own culture and history which they wish to share with generations, and so the concept of "African Americans" is there.
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Post by The Giant-Size Man Thing on Nov 29, 2004 20:51:43 GMT -5
Meh, I just consider "god" to be an extra undefinable variable to the equation of life. You can't define "god," you can't describe it, you can't put a label on it, and you can't prove its existence or its non-existence. What's the point of throwing in an extra variable, when the equation works fine without it, you know?
That's just me, though.
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Kensai
Delta
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Posts: 207
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Post by Kensai on Nov 29, 2004 21:22:21 GMT -5
Zorak, you put into words everything i've been trying to say for the past 4 years.
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