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Post by Meyo-san on Sept 5, 2004 13:13:03 GMT -5
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Post by Infested Manae on Sept 5, 2004 16:35:07 GMT -5
Damn, 1000 people? Earlier reports thought 400 was an over-estimate.
But, it's almost surprizing to see Russia asking for US and other international aid to help with the wounded. Even with the Cold War well over, they're still... reclusive. It's even more of a shock to hear Putin admit Russia is weak, even if we all knew it was true. Sorta like Trump: they look big and powerful, yet are quite the opposite. (hmmm... a Trump card?)
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Post by Juan on Sept 5, 2004 22:17:46 GMT -5
That is no way to win independence, the fools. Doing that won't do anything, in fact, it'll just piss off the Russians even more.
If I were in the Russian government, hell, I'd be likely to kill all those convicts they wanted, just execute them on the spot. Gun to the back of the head. Bam.
I would be severely tempted to retalitate against Chech very severely. I mean, nto like "Now now, listen" more like "Cracka booooooooom" rockets going off.
I have personally no problem if Chech was just after independence, but terrorism is just cowardly and idiotic. It won't achieve nothing, and is more than not a detriment, the fools.
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Post by Triyun on Sept 5, 2004 22:46:15 GMT -5
The Czech Republic and Chechneya are in no way related...
Chechnya has islamic extremists in it yes, but just like any other people they have the right to a soviergn nation rather than being brutally oppressed by Russia, a few years ago the Russians demolished their entire capital with no care for civilian casualties, that is just as bad, so don't act as though its one sided.
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Post by Juan on Sept 5, 2004 22:57:45 GMT -5
Typo'd bad on their names, my bad heh.
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Post by NeoEllis on Sept 6, 2004 0:46:22 GMT -5
The question we should be asking is; "Why is Chechnya worth fighting for from the Russian perspective?" I have a few suspicions, but I'll do a bit of digging.
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Post by Juan on Sept 6, 2004 10:11:52 GMT -5
Uh, Ellis, its not that hard to comprehend. What if California decided to suceed from the union, the government would literally conquer it back.
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Post by Triyun on Sept 6, 2004 10:58:31 GMT -5
Zorak using that logic Russia would be at war with A LOT MORE countries. Chechnya was just the last of the former soviets states that seceded. Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, etc. The reason Chechnya is being oppressed by Russia is actually going back to the Soviet Withdrawl from Afghanistan. You see the islamic elements of the Mujahadeen have been pushing upwards into Russia to take the war to them. In '96 I believe it was if I remember reading in time magazine then, the Russians withdrew from Chechnya. Around this time the Taliban rose back to power in Afghanistan and islamic extremists from their having defeated the Afghan warlords pretty much decided to push north. Al Qaeda and a couple other organizations integrating with the local independence movements (much like they have done in Iraq and Afghanistan) launched attacks in I believe '99 or '00 memory doesn't serve me all that well in that regard. These attacks targetted several russian apartment buildings. Around this time Putin I believe was prime minister still but he could have been president. Anyways he sent the Russian military back into the country and levelled the capital with Hinds and T-model tanks. Some including Ellis will probably also speculate that it also had to do with the fact that there may be some large oil reserves in the area. This may have some truth as well, but to be fair, terrorist attacks based in Chechnya were launched. I should probably also mention that the Russian province north of Chechnya, it begins with a D, also has an islamic population that is sizable and would like to be independant I believe.
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Post by Meyo-san on Sept 6, 2004 13:04:40 GMT -5
What's funny is that Arabs are worried over an international backlash now, well, yes and no. Yes, because many people, except for France, will be angry over the siege, and no, because the UN will do nothing.
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Post by Triyun on Sept 6, 2004 17:31:03 GMT -5
If I get the gist of your opinion you want the UN to do something along the lines of going into Chechnya. And that will accomplish what? If military action worked there the Russians would have won long ago. The government is already turning in a "democracy" (basically its pretty clear they are setting up a puppet government, and by they I mean Putin.) So that obviously doesn't do anything. Russia would more than likely veto UN troops in Chechnya so they can continue committing atrocities there anyways. Giving the region to islamic extremists isn't the answer, but to allow the country to be reduced to rubble by the Russians is just as bad. A Russian tank shooting up a school is just as bad as what the terrorists did. I don't know what the answer is to the situation, its just like the Israeli-Palestinian thing, there is no non-genocidal means to win the conflict with military force.
Plus seriously back off the French, they aren't evil people. We've pocketed some really bad people and no government is perfect. Oh also Chechnyans aren't arabs.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Sept 6, 2004 18:00:09 GMT -5
That's disgusting... I agree with Zorak. Such evil people should not be allowed to live, nor their accomplices. Its one thing to kill adults. Its quite different to kill children. Especially in the name of ideals. So fucking what if you want independence?! How do you think the rest fo the world views you after this?! What if those had been their children, and it had just been some regular Russian extremist group? Would they have screamed bloody murder? You bet your ass they would! If the world is to become a better place than it is now, things like this must not be tolerated. These people must be tracked down and brought to justice, however the victims of such a tragedy see fit. (By victims, of course, I don't mean those who died, but their family and friends.)
In response to those who are trying to rationalize this action: What the Hell are you thinking? How can you possibly say: "Oh, well, they did it because they were trying to make a point." They targeted a fucking school! Full of children! A fucking school! That's not making a damn point! That's being sadistic and evil! If it were an accident, I'd have understood a little better, but the fact is, it wasn't. It was a planned operation. And they were willing to waste innocent (truly innocent) lives. Absolutely disgusting.
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Post by Triyun on Sept 6, 2004 18:13:56 GMT -5
No ones saying that, but, were also saying that in terms of guns blazing the country already had that happen. This isn't the first time we've heard from this group. They blew up apartment buildings several years ago. Russia went in there and levelled the country. The result was even MORE terrorism. The military solution isn't the best way to react immediatly. Instead marginalize them within the Chechan resistance movement. There are Chechan freedom fighters who want a free democratic Chechneya, build them up instead, provide an alternative to those who want independance rather than Islamic Extremist groups. You can't go an expect an entire nationality to bow down. They deserve independence and they will continue to fight for independence just like we did against the British. The only way to squash that is to commit genocide. Its just like the Palestinians, there never going to bow to Israel's military force. The solution with these groups is to support an alternative patriotic nationalistic movement that is based on coexisting peacefully and get the Mujahedeen out.
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Post by Meyo-san on Sept 7, 2004 8:30:13 GMT -5
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Post by Triyun on Sept 7, 2004 10:48:54 GMT -5
Ah I see, I thought you meant the Chechneyans as a people we worried about a backlash and thought they were arabs. Ok, see that helps illustrate my point that the independence movement in that country has been hijacked by Al Qaeda just like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course they are worried about a backlash just like after 9-11. Osama Bin Laden wants a backlash, but that does not jusitify one.
As for France neither of these stories mention it. If your making the arguement that France hasn't stood up and said something, if your making the arguement that France is committing the sin of omission then I guess by not saying anything in these stories our country is to.
As for the UN, praytell what would you do differently then them? They are an international organization that must follow resolutions and rely on the charity of other countries to get military force. What can they do here that would satisfy you?
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Post by Meyo-san on Sept 7, 2004 11:00:56 GMT -5
*bangs head on wall*
About the Arabs part, if you can't see what I mean in a news report, I'm through with getting it through your thick skull. Maybe if I said it more slowly.
Arabs...are...worried...about...international ...backlash...because... several...of...the...terrorists...were...Arab.
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